Jack W. C. Hagstrom, class of 1955, physician, book collector and founding member of the Friends of the Amherst College Library; interview by John Lancaster, former curator of special collections.
[0:00] John Lancaster: I'd like to talk a little bit about the Friends of the Library.
[0:03] Jack W. C. Hagstrom: Right.
[0:03] Lancaster: Which was something you've been involved with almost from the beginning. I say “almost” because it turns out from the files that there was talk about it as far back as the early ’30s that never went anywhere, memos between Stanley King and, and Newton McKeon. But it wasn't until the ’60s that something actually happened.
[0:26] Hagstrom: I was really unaware of all of that until, until what was it, we celebrated 25 years of the Friends of the Library. And I didn't know anything about the back and forth between Newton and Stanley and somebody else, there was, there were a couple other people I think that were involved in talking about this at one particular time. And I'm not at all sure. And in fact, I had no sense of, that there was an apparent resistance on Newton's part to establish a friends group.
[1:00] I don't know whether that was because he didn't want interference in terms of, let's, let's backtrack. I mean, friends groups can take many forms, and they can be real threats to librarians and have been real threats in various places. And I think that many, many times, librarians of universities and colleges have really rued the day that they had a friends group at all. Because it became a, rather than supportive it became a thing unto itself. And, and very much an egocentric kind of thing--egocentric in the sense of the friends itself.
[1:38] And, and so I think there was, there's probably some models out there that, that made Newton wary. Also, at that particular time, the library was a pretty small place in terms, and it was, it was, in fact, Newton's domain. And the staff were, were, it was a big family. And it was, it was, it had that feeling. When I was an undergraduate, the people who worked in the library were all very much friends. I remember Mrs. Mack and Katharine Cowles and Porter Dickinson, and except for student assistants, or people that were very much here for a year or something like that, it worked as a family with Newton very much in command.
[2:23] And he ran the show, and he ran it, he ran it a bit, bit paternalistically, I believe, and so that I could very well understand why he might have some hesitation about establishing the friends group. What changed that? I don't know. I mean, why he went ahead and did it. I don't know. Do you know, John?
[2:43] Lancaster: Well, I don't. I only know what, and I've got a few notes about, about the history here, in, in 1938, Stanley King wrote a memo to Newton who was assistant director at that point.
[2:57] Hagstrom: Right.
[2:58] Lancaster: And we only know from Newton's annotations on the memo that he was afraid of, and I quote, “interference,” and being forced to accept, quote, “useless material” end quote, and that he preferred to deal with people individually rather than in an organization. At some point before Newton took over, Robert Fletcher, who was the head librarian, wrote, although we don't know to whom he sent it, or if it was even sent, a letter to what the files say was a considerable number of Amherst men proposing the formation of a friends group. No indication whether anybody ever responded, or there's nothing in the files. In the early ’40s, 1941, Newton McKeon sought approval for the formation of an alumni visiting committee to the library. Exactly-- [crosstalk]
[3:57] Hagstrom: Sort of on the basis of like the Harvard thing.
[3:59] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. And, and apparently some, some such thing did occur. What happened between then and 1955 when the next appearance of this visiting committee, it recommended the formation of a friends group.
[4:13] Hagstrom: Okay.
[4:14] Lancaster: And it wasn't until 13 years later in 1968, that Newton issued an invitation just before he was to retire, to people to form an actual Friends of Library. [crosstalk]
[4:26] Hagstrom: Was it 1968?
[4:26] Lancaster: 1968, March 20th he wrote, he wrote a letter. Presumably would have gone out shortly thereafter, and the first meeting was on April 27 of that year, 1968. And it says, you're, you were present.
[4:42] Hagstrom: Right. And Bill Stitt, I think, chair, chaired the meeting. And I don't, I remember, I remember vaguely, but I don't have, I mean, I was clearly the youngest person, there was a, there was another undergraduate who was, Howie, Howie--
[4:56] Lancaster: Howard Burnett.
[4:57] Hagstrom: Howard Burnett. Who--
[4:58] Now I never understood, Howard Burnett was a, a soccer player, very prominent soccer player, and I never understood the friendship between--I never knew about the friendship between Newton--because as far as I could see the group that gathered were friends of Newton's.
[5:14] Lancaster: Uh huh. Yeah.
[5:16] Hagstrom: I mean, all of us. And the only person who stood out to me that I didn't, about whom I didn't know, was Howie Burnett as a friend of Newton’s. But I think all of the other people were, in fact, people that Newton knew personally, and gathered together as the core group. I don't know that they were all collectors at all.
[5:36] Lancaster: Well, they were, and I, you know, I was hoping you would comment on some of them besides William Stitt. Dick Zeisler was vice chairman from the beginning of that founding group. And Don Engley, who is still with us, one--
[5:53] Hagstrom: Very much so.
[5:53] Lancaster: --one of the last few.
[5:54] Hagstrom: Well, let's, let’s go person by person. Dick Zeisler was, was not a collector per se in the sense that, the way you and I talk about book collectors, he collected art books primarily to support his own--
[6:06] Lancaster: Art collection, yeah.
[6:06] Hagstrom: Art collection.
[6:07] Lancaster: Yeah.
[6:07] Hagstrom: And, and he did it in a pretty scholarly kind of way. So I think that, that his approach was a bit so that if he coll--, I know he collected various art and I can remember this South American artist whose name I can’t, well, but I know he tried to get books about that particular artist and build up a research library for it. [crosstalk]
[6:29] Lancaster: Sure, yeah. Yeah.
[6:29] Hagstrom: But, and then, and then Bill Stitt was, was a real collector.
[6:33] Lancaster: A book collector, yes, absolutely. [crosstalk]
[6:35] Hagstrom: Book collector. And Don Engley, a librarian and a collector of Rockwell Kent, I know, but I don't know how much beyond that. But he was Librarian of Trinity or, was he?
[6:45] Lancaster: He, he was Librarian of Trinity College and then went on to be the Associate University Librarian at Yale for the remainder of his career. [crosstalk]
[6:53] Hagstrom: Okay, right, right.
[6:54] Lancaster: But yeah, his Rockwell Kent collection is now at Amherst--
[6:56] Hagstrom: Right.
[6:57] Lancaster: --as you know, and he also collects Napoleonia.
[6:59] Hagstrom: Oh, really?
[7:00] Lancaster: Not books but artifacts, prints and, and little statues. And God knows what all else.
[7:08] Hagstrom: Well, I see, I see Dick Zeisler as an art collector with, who added books to his library for art; Don Engley as a real bookman.
[7:19] Lancaster: He'd been a protégé of Newton’s.
[7:21] Hagstrom: Okay.
[7:22] Lancaster: He worked in the Library.
[7:23] Hagstrom: Okay.
[7:24] Lancaster: Newton had gotten him a job here, and then pushed him into Trinity, and--
[7:30] Hagstrom: And then there was Miner Crary, wasn’t he?
[7:32] Lancaster: No, he wasn't, he was not part of the original--
[7:37] Hagstrom: Okay.
[7:37] Lancaster: --group. There was a Calvert Crary--
[7:39] Hagstrom: That's the--
[7:39] Lancaster: --who, who was an early member of the Council. But, uh-- [crosstalk]
[7:43] Hagstrom: Lived in Bronxville, or somewhere in Westchester. [crosstalk]
[7:46] Lancaster: Yeah, I don't know, I never knew him, but, uh--
[7:47] Hagstrom: I remember riding with him once back from Amherst. Um--
[7:49] Lancaster: Okay.
[7:50] Hagstrom: And I think again, a friend of Newton's and I don’t know more about him. [crosstalk]
[7:50] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, there was Paul French, whom you mentioned earlier, he was a classmate of Newton's and, um-- [crosstalk]
[7:57] Hagstrom: Yeah, yes. And ran, ran the Jeffery Amherst Bookshop.
[8:00] Lancaster: Exactly. So--
[8:00] Hagstrom: And, and was, to describe Paul French as a bookman would be an exaggeration.
[8:05] Lancaster: But he was involved in the book world, obviously. [crosstalk]
[8:07] Hagstrom: Oh, very much, and a wonderful spirit. Paul French was a, was a very enthusiastic man. And, and I can remember more than once depending upon Paul French for support when we really needed it. And I don't mean just financial, but that was also there. He had, he had, his wife I think came from money. I think she was an Eastman. And Maggie and, and Paul ran the, and it was very much a, but not a bookman and not a collector, but an enthusiastic member. And fun! Always a lot of fun. [crosstalk]
[8:44] Lancaster: Sure, yeah, yeah. And the the last member of the founding group was Roland Patrick--
[8:48] Hagstrom: Whom I remember well, but I don't, I don't--
[8:51] Lancaster: He, I know he had at least a few Frost things that ended up at Amherst, but I have no other sense of him. I never knew him.
[8:59] Hagstrom: I’m remembering him as a person, but I don't remember anything more about, and I don't know any more about him than that.
[9:04] Lancaster: Yeah.
[9:04] Hagstrom: I maybe just don’t.
[9:05] Lancaster: Well, that group of what, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 people form the original Council.
[9:13] Hagstrom: Okay.
[9:13] Lancaster: The founding members. And Dick Zeisler is, is still alive, but not in good health from everything I hear. And, of course, Don Engley is very much with us.
[9:24] Hagstrom: Right.
[9:25] Lancaster: And keeps adding to the Rockwell Kent collection. [laughs]
[9:28] Hagstrom: As far as I can remember, we met I think once a year after that.
[9:32] Lancaster: Uh huh. I don't--
[9:33] Hagstrom: I think so.
[9:34] Lancaster: I don't know that.
[9:34] Hagstrom: And Bill Stitt died very, very soon after.
[9:36] Lancaster: Yeah, he was killed in a car accident.
[9:38] Hagstrom: That's right.
[9:39] Lancaster: Unfortunately. And so Dick Zeisler became chairman. [crosstalk]
[9:41] Hagstrom: Took over. And as far as I can recall, Howie Burnett never attended another meeting of the Council. I don’t, and I, again, I never talked with him, but he was not, he was not an enemy of mine. He's not a friend. [crosstalk]
[9:54] Lancaster: Yeah, he’s just, yeah, yeah. His name shows, turns up nowhere else.
[9:57] Hagstrom: Exactly, exactly. And Roland Patrick was, was a loyal member, um, Crary, uh, Patrick, which Crary was it?
[10:07] Lancaster: Calvert Crary.
[10:07] Hagstrom: Calvert Crary.
[10:09] Lancaster: The earliest, the earliest members after the founders were Ward Burns--
[10:15] Hagstrom: Okay.
[10:15] Lancaster: He was, he was the number one recruit after, after the founders. [crosstalk]
[10:18] Hagstrom: Oh, is that right?
[10:19] Lancaster: Yeah.
[10:19] Hagstrom: And is still with us, of course.
[10:20] Lancaster: And is still with us, very much so. [crosstalk]
[10:21] Hagstrom: On the Council, yeah.
[10:22] Lancaster: Yeah.And then Calvert Crary, whom again I know nothing about, never met him, was gone before I came. Although he, again some of his Frost books are here.
[10:30] Hagstrom: Okay.
[10:31] Lancaster: And then Richard Templeton was another Frost, very much a Frost collector.
[10:35] Hagstrom: But very, but, and Richard, Dick Templeton lived in Chicago--
[10:39] Lancaster: Chicago, yeah.
[10:39] Hagstrom: And was a real, he was a real bookman. And very much involved also with the Art Institute of Chicago.
[10:45] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[10:45] Hagstrom: And, and Dick caused a couple of things to be printed, actually.
[10:51] Lancaster: Yes, he did, of Frost’s.
[10:52] Hagstrom: Yeah, Frost, and I think also a Wilbur. I mean, maybe it's--
[10:56] Lancaster: Oh, really?
[10:58] Hagstrom: There's either a Wilbur, maybe it's a Frost, with a introduction or something, I don't know. Anyway. But he was a bookman.
[11:03] Lancaster: Yes.
[11:04] Hagstrom: And a businessman in Chicago.
[11:05] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[11:05] Hagstrom: Uh, Dick Zeisler took over, and, and was an entirely different cup of tea, very, Dick Zeisler was very, very much a businessman in terms of his approach to the Friends. And that was a time when, it was a very difficult time for the Friends because Calvin was then president of Amherst, and, and when Newton retired, Calvin came up with the idea, or somebody came up with the idea, that they would divide the job of Librarian of the College into two, one, the Director of the Library and the other Librarian of the College. Well, Dick Cody got the nod to be Librarian of the College and a guy named Ted Laugher was the Director of the Library. And I don't know how long it lasted, but it never worked.
[12:00] Lancaster: About 4 years, I think. [laughs]
[12:02] Hagstrom: It just never worked. And, and it was, it was a difficult time for everybody. And it was all Calvin's fault. I mean, he, why Cal, Cal, the Library was not a high priority in Calvin's mind. He, I don't know what was a high priority in Calvin’s mind, but he and Newton didn't didn't see it eye to eye on a lot of things. And I think that, I think that Calvin was just as happy to see Newton go. And, and maybe, I don't know how this came about, this, this division of labor, but, but I remember talking with Calvin about it. And, and he was, Calvin and I didn't get along. We were good friends before he became president of Amherst because I knew him at Columbia when he was a distinguished physician and a highly regarded clinician and teacher.
[12:56] And then he became president of Amherst and I think he changed remarkably. And it may have to do with the fact that his father had been chairman of the board and a very influential chairman of the board at Amherst and his brother Francis had been, was very influential at Amherst. And, and, and the Plimpton name was very important at Amherst, and properly so. And, but Calvin, I think, and Calvin of course had no experience in terms of running a college, he was not an educator in that sense.
[13:26] And so his ideas were not necessarily tried ideas in any way. And I think that he had some assistance and advice along the way that was not very good. I think that, and to go further is to say nothing more. But the fact of the matter, that division of labor was not, did not work, and there was a guy named John Callahan, who was Director of Development at that time, and I have to say, even though John Callahan and I crossed swords seriously, over several things, we, I suppose would still say that we were, we were friends. And we, and I, because we liked each other, basically. But we certainly disagreed. And I think that what happened under Dick Zeisler was that, that either, either Calvin, or John, or the, or the bo--, the group running the College at that particular time saw the Friends group as, as maybe a deterrent for funds going to the Library, maybe as a, as a as power, a drain of power. I don't really know, I never und--, but it, but clearly they were not encouraging of the Friends to the point that they made life very difficult for Dick Zeisler.
[14:42] And at one point, I remember talking with Dick who asked my opinion about this. And he said “let's just move the whole shebang down to New York and operate out of New York.” And, in fact that was more than a threat, and, and we told John Callahan, I think it was “we.” But it was clear that Dick Zeisler had had it up to his eyebrows in terms of aggravations one way or another. I mean, it's just that it was, it was made, it made it so difficult that it wasn't worth the effort and no fun.
[15:17] Lancaster: Yeah.
[15:18] Hagstrom: And, and so that was the confrontation. Well, it never happened. And I don't, I don't know that there was a “backing off,” it was, it was certainly a “backing down,” and, and there was a lot of emotion involved--no strong words, but, but really strong feelings. And, and, and I, and I don't remember the resolution to this other than the Friends stayed here and, and, and I don't remember why Dick resigned as the chairman when he did, maybe--
[15:49] Lancaster: I was wondering if perhaps that contributed to it.
[15:51] Hagstrom: Maybe, I mean, I, it may very well had something to do it. I just don't remember. And then. And then I became chairman, and--
[15:59] Lancaster: Yeah, this was 1973.
[16:00] Hagstrom: Was it?
[16:01] Lancaster: Yeah.
[16:02] Hagstrom: Was Calvin still president then?
[16:05] Lancaster: Uh, well, let's see.
[16:07] Hagstrom: I just don't know.
[16:08] Lancaster: Yeah, no, I think, I think Bill Ward had become president at that point, I think.
[16:12] Hagstrom: Okay. Well, that, you see, would have made a huge difference.
[16:15] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[16:16] Hagstrom: And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Dick stepping down didn't have something to do. I mean, it had been, it was not a pleasant experience for him.
[16:24] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, I know that when I first came in 1977, there was still considerable tension between the Development Office and, and the Friends. And John Peterson was a, you know, grad-- who's now back on the Council.
[16:39] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[16:40] Lancaster: Graduated in 1971, and was, was--
[16:43] Hagstrom: He worked for Callahan.
[16:45] Lancaster: He worked for Callahan. And he was the liaison to the four Friends groups. And I remember a lot of very private conversations about how, how to best work this relationship so that, with that official. [crosstalk]
[16:58] Hagstrom: Well, John Callahan, John Peterson is somebody with whom you could speak--
[17:01] Lancaster: Exactly.
[17:01] Hagstrom: --and, and, and he knew the tensions that, and understood them.
[17:06] Lancaster: Yes.
[17:06] Hagstrom: But anyway, to, it all, it all got back on, on, “online,” as it were. And, and I can't re--, the Council when I, when I took over as chairman was a great Council of people, and I can't remember who they were, but they were, they were all friends. Mercer Tate, and Ward Burns, lots of people, some of them people I knew when I was an undergraduate.
[17:35] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, Ted Bacon was, was one of them.
[17:37] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[17:38] Lancaster: Mark Ball had come on before. [crosstalk]
[17:39] Hagstrom: Absolutely. Class of ’56.
[17:40] Lancaster: And, uh, and let's see, Charlie Cole.
[17:46] Hagstrom: Was Charlie Cole on the Council?
[17:47] Lancaster: He was on the council from 1971 to ’77.
[17:50] Hagstrom: Okay.
[17:50] Lancaster: Abbott Van Nostrand--
[17:51] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[17:51] Lancaster: --was someone else. Fred Lane--
[17:54] Hagstrom: Sure.
[17:55] Lancaster: --who continued on the Council until his death earlier this year.
[17:59] Hagstrom: Right, right.
[18:00] Lancaster: And then you, you brought Mercer on.
[18:04] Hagstrom: Okay.
[18:05] Lancaster: You brought Mercer, and Armour Craig. [crosstalk]
[18:07] Hagstrom: Mercer was a friend of mine, and, when I was an undergraduate.
[18:10] Lancaster: Yeah. He was a little ahead of you.
[18:11] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[18:13] Lancaster: Um, and Armour Craig--
[18:14] Hagstrom: Yes.
[18:14] Lancaster: --was somebody else you brought along.
[18:15] Hagstrom: Yes, yes. Armour was a friend from, from College, I mean he was teaching here, and then I think he retired and, and then he became acting president when-- [crosstalk]
[18:26] Lancaster: Yeah. Well he became acting president before retiring.
[18:29] Hagstrom: Okay.
[18:29] Lancaster: It was after Julian Gibbs died--
[18:31] Hagstrom: Okay.
[18:31] Lancaster: --suddenly and unexpectedly.
[18:32] Hagstrom: But then, then Armour became very much, and, and Willard Thorp.
[18:35] Lancaster: Well, Willard came quite a bit later.
[18:37] Hagstrom: Did he?
[18:37] Lancaster: Yeah, he was, he was much later, but, uh--
[18:40] Hagstrom: The whole point is that, is that the Council was a group of friends working together with a common purpose. And, and I think the only real thing that I would take credit for in terms of focus of the Friends group was to, I think up until that point, it had pretty much been oriented towards Special Collections and Special Collections alone. I think that Newton saw the Friends group as a, as an adjunct to what, well it wasn’t called Special Collections then, it was called the Rare Book Room.
[19:19] Lancaster: Oh, yeah, the Rare Book Room before Frost, the Frost Library was built.
[19:22] Hagstrom: Yeah, exactly. And, and--
[19:23] Lancaster: But by the time the Friends group was formed, it was--
[19:26] Hagstrom: Special Collections.
[19:26] Lancaster: Special Collections.
[19:27] Hagstrom: Yeah, okay.
[19:28] But I think Newton really saw the Friends group as an add--, as a support group for, for Special Collections. And I think that by the time I took over, Special Collections was, I mean, let me backtrack, I saw, from my experience as an undergraduate in the Library, I knew the whole Library, because I knew the staff. I knew circulation. I knew, I mean, I just liked the Library. And I spent a lot of time, and I knew these people well. [crosstalk]
[19:55] Lancaster: Right.
[19:56] Hagstrom: And so that the concept of the Library, even though my own interest was particularly Special Collections, was larger. And I thought that if it was going to be the Friends of Amherst College Library, it ought to start to look to support, like reference and, and things like that. Not in a ongoing daily basis, but to, to use what limited funds and so forth, that were available to add significant things to--
[20:22] Lancaster: To all the collections.
[20:23] Hagstrom: To all the collections, exactly. And I think that that's, that would be the one thing for which I want to take credit, in terms of that concept.
[20:35] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, and that clearly, was the case when I came, has, has been a theme that's run through everything. Two of, the two things you said, first, not supporting ongoing, year after year, projects--
[20:49] Hagstrom: Right.
[20:49] Lancaster: --or whatever, seed money or one shot anywhere in the Library. Science Library Music Library, the Friends have supported things everywhere. But the other thing is, is all across the Library, not just Special Collections, or as it is now, Archives and Special Collections.
[21:06] Hagstrom: Right. But, but to, but also not just to support in terms of that, but to encourage gifts to. And I mean, whether it be the Music Library, I mean, very much, I think the Friends group, and I should, and I've thought this all along, should be a facilitator for the library in terms of encouraging people to give, give and support and, and involve themselves with.
[21:31] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, it's a, it's, it's, at least since I've been here, it's been focused on membership, not fundraising. It is, it raises money, of course, and, and supports various projects, but it is not a primarily fundraising vehicle--
[21:47] Hagstrom: Not at all.
[21:47] Lancaster: It is to involve people with the life of the Library.
[21:50] Hagstrom: Well, and there, there again, I want, I feel very strongly about this because I know, I know when I took over I collared every single person that I knew. And I think I got 50 or 60 of my friends and acquaintances to become members of the Friends. And, and really pushed for, for a viable group of people, a core of hundreds rather than 50 or 60 or 70. And, and I didn't really care at all about the amount of money. I just wanted, I wanted diversity, and I wanted involvement and I didn't care whether they were Amherst graduates, I didn’t, women, men, didn't matter. The more people, the better, and the more enthusiasm. And then to try and give them something in return like keepsakes and things like that. So we started doing things.
[22:40] Lancaster: Publications.
[22:41] Hagstrom: Exactly.
[22:41] Lancaster: And the Robert Frost Library Fellowship. How did that come about? Do you have any recollection? [crosstalk]
[22:46] Hagstrom: I don't know. I don't really remember. But the newsletter came first. And that was, that was to, it was very modest, the first, in the very beginning.
[22:55] Lancaster: The first two, were just mimeograph sheets, basically. [crosstalk]
[22:59] Hagstrom: Exactly. And then, and then, and then it, then, then we decided it should look better, and it got nicely printed. And I think there were two issues a year.
[23:07] Lancaster: Originally, there were two. That proved to be--
[23:11] Hagstrom: Well, just burdensome.
[23:11] Lancaster: Optimistic. [laughs]
[23:12] Hagstrom: Yeah. And, and, but then there were keepsakes.
[23:15] Lancaster: Yes.
[23:15] Hagstrom: And there were keepsakes of all sorts and kinds, elegant and then very minor ones.
[23:22] Lancaster: Well, not sure how minor.
[23:24] Hagstrom: Well, like a book, like I mean, a bookmark, for instance.
[23:27] Lancaster: Oh, yeah.
[23:28] Hagstrom: That kind of thing.
[23:28] Lancaster: Yeah, they've done bookmarks from time to time. But I, I have a list of the publications. I mean, they started even before you took over, 1970 was the Myfanwy Thomas keepsake.
[23:41] Hagstrom: Okay. Yeah, yeah.
[23:43] Lancaster: You know, I don't know, you probably played a role in that at some point, you know, even though you weren’t chairman. [crosstalk]
[23:46] Hagstrom: I was very much involved in that, absolutely. She, she was somebody I knew, yes.
[23:49] Lancaster: Yeah.
[23:49] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[23:50] Lancaster: Okay. And then the first publication after your accession to the chairmanship was 1974, that, that is, it's called Robert Frost: A Remembrance but it, it published that poem that Frost had inscribed to Katharine Cowles--
[24:08] Hagstrom: To Katharine Cowles.
[24:08] Lancaster: --uh, in a book called Fragments written in England in 1914. And then he wrote up in the corner “or ’13,” he wasn’t quite sure. [laughs]
[24:15] Hagstrom: Interesting, interesting, interesting.
[24:17] Lancaster: And that's become quite a collector's item, of course, as it was done in only, I think 500 copies.
[24:23] Hagstrom: But, but this is, and I think the Friends has continued in this vein, pretty much, again with a, with a collegial atmosphere entirely on the Council. And we've never been particularly worried about the number of people that gathered, so long as there was easy and, and, I think very, very open discourse and intercourse in conversation sometimes.
[24:49] Lancaster: Yeah.
[24:49] Hagstrom: And, and lots of support from people, individual people along the way. And I, as far as I can see, the Friends has, has never stepped out of line in terms of, it's never gotten involved in the management of the Library.
[25:05] Lancaster: Exactly. And that’s, that’s key. [crosstalk]
[25:06] Hagstrom: And I don't think it should. I think there have been, I know over the years, there have been lots of private conversations with, with the librarians. And, and I have to say that, that every president, except for Tom Gerety, was extraordinarily supportive of the Friends of the Library. From, from, from Bill Ward, Bill Ward came after Calvin?
[25:31] Lancaster: After Calvin, yeah.
[25:31] Hagstrom: And then, and Julian was here just a short period of time. [crosstalk]
[25:35] Lancaster: Just briefly, yeah.
[25:37] Hagstrom: Uh, and then--
[25:38] Lancaster: Armour, Armour--
[25:39] Hagstrom: And then Armour.
[25:40] Lancaster: As an interim, but--
[25:41] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[25:43] Lancaster: --he was, of course, totally supportive.
[25:43] Hagstrom: Absolutely. And then after Armour came--
[25:47] Lancaster: Well, that was Peter Pouncey.
[25:48] Hagstrom: And Peter was very supportive of the Friends, absolutely. [crosstalk]
[25:52] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. Yes, he was.
[25:53] Hagstrom: Of the Friends.
[25:53] Lancaster: Yeah.
[25:54] Hagstrom: There was other things.
[25:56] Lancaster: Other questions about the Library. [laughs]
[25:58] Hagstrom: Well, that's right. But, but, but, but Peter was a good friend of mine and, and, and when, early in Peter’s career, when he was living here in Amherst, we would have receptions over at the President's House and things like that. [crosstalk]
[26:11] Lancaster: Yes, indeed.
[26:11] Hagstrom: And then, up until, and then Tom Gerety just simply wasn't interested. He was never around for goodness’ sakes. But-- And, and I'm not sure that, that we needed it. It was always nice to have the president as part of it, but the Friends didn’t suffer because of Tom, that’s for sure.
[26:29] Lancaster: Sure, yeah.
[26:30] Hagstrom: And he was not anti-Friends of the Library. [crosstalk]
[26:31] Lancaster: No, no, he didn't, he didn't oppose it. He just wasn't particularly interested in hosting the group.
[26:37] Hagstrom: Exactly. And I don't think that he was involved in any of the Friends groups.
[26:41] Lancaster: Yeah. I’m, I know so little about the other Friends groups’ inner workings, that I can’t, can’t comment on them. [crosstalk]
[26:47] Hagstrom: I don’t, same here. Yeah.
[26:48] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, one of the things that the Friends has always done is, is to try to encourage gifts of books, appropriate books to the Library and, and you played-- [crosstalk]
[26:59] Hagstrom: Ah, yes, but I also think--
[27:01] Lancaster: Go ahead.
[27:01] Hagstrom: Sorry. I have always thought, that to go out and solicit gifts in a selective kind of way, and I learned, I got the smell of this from Ken Loft at Columbia who would go off, and Ken Loft was no friend of mine. He, we were acquaintances, but I did not like him and I did not like his whole approach. And one of the things that I saw him do, he'd go in and pick out the things that he wanted and, and, and leave people absolutely wanting for more. And it was, well I think that if, and I thought it was really wrong, and so that I, I think I maybe talked to you, John, or somebody, if somebody wants to give the, give the College their library without restrictions that we should just take it.
[27:54] Lancaster: Yes.
[27:54] Hagstrom: And, and if, and add to the collections what, what could be useful, get rid of the rest, get whatever cash you can, or, and whatever, give it away, whatever, but not to go through this and just pick out the high spots.
[28:07] Lancaster: Exactly, yeah.
[28:08] Hagstrom: And I think that's been the policy right along, and I think it's really worked.
[28:12] Lancaster: Yeah, that just being receptive to people--
[28:15] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[28:16] Lancaster: And also because it often has tax implications, helping people however we can in dealing with those, those tax issues, in terms of appraisal. [crosstalk]
[28:28] Hagstrom: It's very interesting.
[28:29] I remember when I was working on the Thom Gunn bibliography, I was up at Cambridge. And, and, and somebody at, at Trinity College, took me over to the Cambridge University Library, and J. C. T. Oates, was then Librarian of Cambridge University.
[28:48] Lancaster: Yes.
[28:49] Hagstrom: And, and, and this person at Trinity took me over and introduced me to Mr. Oates. Well Mr. Oates had all the time in the world for me. This extraordinarily important man at Cambridge University sat me down in his office and gave me a cup of tea. And we talked about things and, and he was telling me about how they accept things and so forth. And so it was very interesting for me to have that this is we're now talking 19-, I think, ’77 kind of thing, from a totally different world. And, and as far as I, sort of a towering figure, and it really impressed me a lot.
[29:33] Lancaster: And how did their approach differ? Or help, or--?
[29:36] Hagstrom: Well they, they, they, they were they were willing to take anything that came along, but not to necessarily have to hold on to it.
[29:44] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. Without restrictions, that’s it. [crosstalk]
[29:45] Hagstrom: Exactly, exactly.
[29:46] Lancaster: I mean, occasionally a gift will come where you're willing to commit to keeping the whole thing. [crosstalk]
[29:51] Hagstrom: Sure, that’s a whole different story. And, and I think the thing is, that what's always happened is that, is that is the, well, since you've been here and Richard Phillips was before, he was, again, very receptive to people and very helpful and encouraging and that was not the general feeling in America in rare book rooms and--
[30:11] Lancaster: Exactly.
[30:13] Hagstrom: At all.
[30:13] Lancaster: Yeah.
[30:14] Hagstrom: Fred, Fred Adams at the Morgan was a different kind of person just because of his personality. But this was, but he, but he was, just because of personality, but other, the other places were very much closed inner sanctums.
[30:30] Lancaster: Yeah, there there was certainly a lot of that feeling, you know, um-- [crosstalk]
[30:33] Hagstrom: Yeah. And there still is some of that.
[30:35] Lancaster: There still is some, some places and, you know, the rationale of course, is that well, you don't want to waste your time on, on lesser stuff, but, you know--
[30:44] Hagstrom: Or lesser people. [laughs]
[30:46] Lancaster: Lesser people, perhaps, I don't know. But one thing that, you know, I had, I came to this as a, as a rare book cataloger. I'd never dealt with donors and, and gifts and that sort of thing. And I was a little apprehensive about having to go out and beat the bushes and try and talk people into giving, giving things to Amherst. There was never any of that. I mean, the hard part was just keeping up with the people who wanted to give us things and once they found we were receptive, were totally open handed and generous. And it's been that way for 30 years, my 30 years, anyway. [crosstalk]
[31:20] Hagstrom: And that, it works so well, yeah. And well, as far as I can see, there’s no diminution in that, is there?
[31:24] Lancaster: No, well last year we, we took in some three quarters of a million dollars worth.
[31:28] Hagstrom: Is that right?
[31:29] Lancaster: I mean, monetary value is not the only criterion that you judge gifts by and it fluctuates wildly depending on individuals, tax situations and so forth. I mean, this year, it's going to be a lot lower but, uh, you know-- [crosstalk]
[31:42] Hagstrom: Sure. But that's an awful lot of money.
[31:43] Lancaster: But it, it shows that there are people with, with significant collections that are interested in Amherst and in building our collections.
[31:52] Hagstrom: And--
[31:52] Lancaster: And I think you, you know, without, without putting too fine a point on it, have to take some credit for, for developing the climate in which that can flourish.
[32:02] Hagstrom: Yeah, I think that's, I'll take that credit because I feel very strongly about it, very, because I think that's-- I think that’s very important. And I think it's very important that continue.
[32:12] Lancaster: Yeah.
[32:13] Hagstrom: Because I, see I, it's my whole concept of the Amherst College Library, it goes back to being an undergraduate and finding here, everything that I needed for what I wanted to do intellectually, or, or find, or people getting it for me without any hassle. And as I've seen the Library grow, I've seen it grow in stature. And, and, and with respect all over the country in terms of what Amherst represents as probably the finest undergraduate research library for students at Amherst College.
[32:49] Lancaster: Well, and one of the things you mentioned earlier, in addition to what you knew you needed, you often ran across things that you didn't know about before.
[32:57] Hagstrom: Absolutely.
[32:57] Lancaster: Running, you know, looking at the new book shelf, which still exists right out there. [crosstalk]
[33:01] Hagstrom: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And the depth of collections here, unbelievable.
[33:04] Lancaster: Well, as you know, we hit a million volumes a year and a half ago, and there aren't, there are many university libraries that aren't that large, so--
[33:13] Hagstrom: And students who, when you're a student here, you just don't get, have any sense of the depth of the resource because you just can't plumb it.
[33:26] Lancaster: Yeah, I mean, you might get to know a certain area if you're doing advanced, advanced--
[33:31] Hagstrom: Whatever. [crosstalk]
[33:31] Lancaster: Work in the humanities or something like that. But, uh, I think it's only much later if you keep in touch and remain a member of the Friends that you start getting a sense of the breadth of it all. Yeah. To return for a moment to the Robert Frost Library Fellowships. I know that you played a significant role in getting some of them here. I mean, clearly, Richard Wilbur and James Merrill and--
[33:58] Hagstrom: Thom Gunn.
[33:58] Lancaster: --Thom Gunn, are, are people whose work you collected and whom you had gotten to know. What about Helen Vendler? Were you involved in that?
[34:09] Hagstrom: I was. And, but I wasn't the primary person. There was somebody else who either suggested to her and/or knew her. I, I'm sure I had something to do with it, but I don't remember. I don't remember the genesis of the--
[34:25] Lancaster: Yeah.
[34:25] Hagstrom: --of the Robert Frost Li--. I mean, clearly had something to do with it. But I don't remember.
[34:30] Lancaster: Yeah. ‘Cause it started before you took over as, as chairman, so--
[34:33] Hagstrom: Did it?
[34:34] Lancaster: Yeah.
[34:34] Hagstrom: Okay.
[34:35] Lancaster: Yeah. Just just shortly before.
[34:36] Hagstrom: Okay.
[34:36] Lancaster: But, uh, and the first couple of fellows were--
[34:39] Hagstrom: First one was Carrington, wasn't it?
[34:40] Lancaster: Yeah, the historian. [crosstalk]
[34:41] Hagstrom: And, oh, that was Dick Cody.
[34:42] Lancaster: Right.
[34:43] Hagstrom: And he was a friend of Dick Cody’s, and I, Charles Carrington, right?
[34:48] Lancaster: Yes. He was a historian. [crosstalk]
[34:48] Hagstrom: He was a historian. And I remember him. And then who is the second fellow?
[34:53] Lancaster: Well, that I believe, that was Mario Di Cesare.
[34:57] Hagstrom: Okay.
[34:57] Lancaster: Who was somebody that Will had known at, um--
[35:01] Hagstrom: Binghamton, I think.
[35:01] Lancaster: At Binghamton.
[35:02] Hagstrom: Yes.
[35:06] Lancaster: Here.
[35:06] Hagstrom: Okay.
[35:07] Lancaster: I have it right here. No, John Cruickshank is the name I don't know. I have no recollection, it was before my time, of course. [crosstalk]
[35:14] Hagstrom: No, I can’t, I can’t fill, I can't remember [?] that.
[35:15] Lancaster: But then the third one was Mario Di Cesare.
[35:16] Hagstrom: And that was Will.
[35:18] Lancaster: At Binghamton.
[35:18] Hagstrom: Friend of Will’s at Binghamton.
[35:20] Lancaster: And then the poet and critic, F. T. [Prince], Frank [Prince], who was a friend of Dick Cody’s again, but you may have known him as well. [crosstalk]
[35:27] Hagstrom: Ah, Frank [Prince]. Exactly. And, well, I knew, I knew his poetry. And I, and I didn't realize that, that he was still alive. He was at Southampton, I think, and, and I, it was, it was a joy and delight to meet him. He was very considerable.
[35:44] Lancaster: Well then, then came Thom Gunn and James Merrill. [crosstalk]
[35:46] Hagstrom: Well, you see, all those are, are, are, all of those are, are the librarians’ choices. With the support of the li--, of the fellows. And then, and then I think, then came Thom Gunn?
[36:02] Lancaster: Yeah, Thom Gunn was in 1980. And he, he was, uh, well, the second fellow that I had anything to do with and still the most popular with the students. Of any of the fellows that have come. [crosstalk]
[36:15] Hagstrom: Well, that's right, but he, but he, he was the last one, I think, who gave an after-dinner talk.
[36:23] Lancaster: [laughs] Yes.
[36:23] Hagstrom: Because he, I remember this, he prepared this really quite scholarly talk that was subsequently published in The Southern Review. And I--
[36:35] Lancaster: Well, I think everyone dozed at one point or another. [laughs]
[36:39] Hagstrom: And poor Thom was, was--
[36:40] Lancaster: Yeah.
[36:41] Hagstrom:I mean, he suffered.
[36:42] Lancaster: Well, we we always tried to tell them that this was “after dinner.”
[36:47] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[36:47] Lancaster: It was supposed to be short, light, humorous, if possible. [laughs]
[36:52] Hagstrom: But still--
[36:54] Lancaster: Um--
[36:54] Hagstrom: It didn’t work.
[36:55] Lancaster: No. It was, well-- [crosstalk]
[36:55] Hagstrom: So we’ve changed, I’m assuming, the Friday afternoon meal. [crosstalk]
[36:57] Lancaster: Yeah. James Merrill was, was good. He read, a little bit, and talked a little bit.
[37:02] Hagstrom: But he, Jimmy must have been the last one at after-dinner.
[37:04] Lancaster: No, Helen Vendler.
[37:06] Hagstrom: Oh, was she, really?
[37:07] Lancaster: She, she put people to sleep with, with, talk about Keats, I believe. [laughs, crosstalk]
[37:11] Hagstrom: Okay, interesting. [laughs] Ah, well, there you are.
[37:13] Lancaster: Even Armour Craig, you know, and, you know, English professor par excellence, you know, couldn't quite keep his eyes open. [laughs, crosstalk]
[37:22] Hagstrom: Sure, sure, sure. [laughs] That’s interesting.
[37:23] Lancaster: But now, from then on the talks are all in the afternoon, and nothing happens after dinner except table chitchat.
[37:31] Hagstrom: Yeah. That's great, yeah.
[37:33] Lancaster: But, but Richard Sewall, obviously biographer of Emily Dickinson--
[37:38] Hagstrom: Right.
[37:38] Lancaster: --were you, who, who instigated that? He’s also a Williams graduate. [crosstalk]
[37:43] Hagstrom: Again, I, I don’t, yeah. And at Yale, right?
[37:46] Lancaster: He's, yeah, he spent his scholarly career there.
[37:49] Hagstrom: Yale. I don't know. I mean, I don't remember. It may have been Dick Cody. I just don't know.
[37:54] Lancaster: You know, I mean, the Dickinson connection is an obvious one.
[37:57] Hagstrom: My, my emphasis was always literary.
[38:00] Lancaster: Yes.
[38:01] Hagstrom: But, but, but--
[38:03] Lancaster: Well, and after your time, I mean, during, during your chairmanship, everybody except Mario di Cesare who’s a historian, everybody else was literary.
[38:16] Hagstrom: Okay.
[38:16] Lancaster: Either a critic as Helen Vendler and Richard Sewall, or a practitioner. But then the, the focus changed, and the idea was that we weren't going to focus just on literature--
[38:29] Hagstrom: Which is fine.
[38:30] Lancaster: --and it didn't have to be because it was named for Robert Frost.
[38:33] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[38:34] Lancaster: And so we've had a Nobel Prize winning economist, we've had a couple of sex researchers [laughs] who came to the sociology department, and novelists. [crosstalk]
[38:45] Hagstrom: Mike Mazur.
[38:46] Lancaster: Michael Mazur was the first--
[38:47] Hagstrom: Artist.
[38:48] Lancaster: --visual artist.
[38:49] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[38:49] Lancaster: You know, and a legal historian. So the Friends have, have covered, have covered the campus as well as, as the li--, the whole Library. It fits together with the, the notion of supporting the Library as a whole. [indistinguishable crosstalk]
[39:04] Hagstrom: I think that's great. The thing, the thing that I think that, that for which I can take no credit is that the Friends should be, one of the proudest is the relationship with the Folger Library. And, and, again, I, I have to say that when this came up, I didn't, I didn't voice it, but I was very, very, very skeptical whether this would work or not. And I think it's only worked because of the, because of the extraordinary working between Will and G--.
[39:38] Lancaster: Richard Kuhta, at the Library. [crosstalk]
[39:41] Hagstrom: Richard Kuhta, at the Folger.
[39:42] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, they--
[39:43] Hagstrom: They got it off the ground.
[39:44] Lancaster: Yeah. But, you know, they were skeptical of this as well. I mean, Werner Gundersheimer was the, the director of Folger at that point.
[39:51] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[39:51] Lancaster: One of the things that he had been asked to do was to find ways to bring greater connection between Amherst College and the Folger, to the extent it was possible. So he was, he was quite positive about this. Um--
[40:06] Hagstrom: And it took that, because Werner--
[40:09] Lancaster: And it took that, it took that. But I think after the first couple of years of fellowships, the, Richard Kuhta, the librarian, and the rest of the staff were extremely positive because they were so impressed with the quality of the students that came and how they,
[40:25] Hagstrom: It’s been a wonderful success.
[40:27] Lancaster: how they were able to work with, uh--
[40:29] Hagstrom: Yeah. But it's certainly been a two way street, because I mean, the Folger is about as forbidding a place as you could possibly find if you just go in there and, uh, cold and, it's been great. [crosstalk]
[40:40] Lancaster: [laughs] Yes. Yeah, well, it, of necessity, restricts access to, to serious scholars. In fact, you may remember when, when a member of the class of 1911, Fred Pohl, who used to come to the meetings and so forth, he had written a biography of Shakespeare and because he wasn't a scholar, he couldn't get credentials to have admission to the Folger. [laughs]
[41:05] Hagstrom: Is that right?
[41:05] Lancaster: He had to write to Bill Ward and, and fuss and eventually they let him in. [crosstalk]
[41:09] Hagstrom: I didn’t know that. That’s interesting.
[41:09] Lancaster: His book was on their shelves.
[41:11] Hagstrom: But he couldn't get in.
[41:12] Lancaster: He was, but he was a bit of a rabble rouser in–
[41:16] Hagstrom: But I think that, that, that is something really important that the Friends has done over the–
[41:21] Lancaster: Yeah. And it has, it has stood up very well over time.
[41:25] Hagstrom: Well, I think the Friends is still a very viable organization. And now with John Peterson, I'm absolutely delighted that John Peterson is going to take over because he knows Amherst well, he has a great feeling for Amherst. He has his own personality, that’s for sure.
[41:42] Lancaster: Well, and, and from his previous stint here in the Development Office as well as, as having been a student and and a former Council member. He knows every side of, of the operation. He knows what the Friends can do. He's always been a great supporter of publications.
[42:01] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[42:01] Lancaster: And that I think is, is one of the, it's been one of the things that I've enjoyed most is finding things worth publishing in this collection. And believe me, we have, we have many, many more. [laughs]
[42:12] Hagstrom: A plethora. Right, right.
[42:13] Lancaster: So, uh, yeah. Well, I, I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the people, I mean, we've touched on some names. But, um, Mark Ball is one of them. A Washington lawyer and has been a staunch supporter.
[42:30] Hagstrom: Mark Ball, class of ‘56, Rhodes scholar, lawyer, intellect, father of 4, I think, and a, a good friend of mine for years--always been, I mean Mark’s interest in the Library is very much the same as mine. He had a wonderful experience at Amherst, used the library. And and, and, and so it was natural for Mark to be part of the Council. Mark is, was a very busy Washington lawyer, so he could not get up here--Mercer the same way, he was a Philadelphia lawyer. But again, the same kind of background. And it's just a natural thing for Mark to do. And he's not a collector.
[43:20] Lancaster: No.
[43:20] Hagstrom: And never has been a collector, but he's a reader and an intellect. And I suppose maybe now almost retired. Well, he's retired or not. He's got, I think he's become of counsel, but I'm not sure. But he was just, he was the sort of person that would be an addition to the Council, because he was interested.
[43:37] Lancaster: He always had ideas.
[43:39] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[43:39] Lancaster: And, you know, as you say, he’s not a collector. [crosstalk]
[43:42] Hagstrom: And, and opinions.
[43:42] Lancaster: And opinions.
[43:43] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[43:43] Lancaster: And, he was, he, a lot of his legal work was in mediation.
[43:49] Hagstrom: Is that true?
[43:49] Lancaster: And so he was very helpful whenever, whenever there were impasses in the Council, I remember being quite happy that he was there. He'd sort of sit and listen and then make a suggestion that often broke the log jam.
[44:02] Hagstrom: Paul Ruxin is cut out of very much the same cloth, except that Paul is a very scholarly collector as well.
[44:10] Lancaster: Yeah, Paul is a great collector and a scholar, and he's more of a litigator but, but he's but he's very good at finding some common ground in this kind of operation. Abbott Van Nostrand was a long-time, great, great raconteur. [crosstalk]
[44:30] Hagstrom: Well, yeah. And, and Abby and I had a very special friendship because, because Van Nos--, what was it? What was the name of the company?
[44:38] Lancaster: Uh, Samuel French.
[44:39] Hagstrom: Samuel French had, had offices in Covent Garden. And right around the corner from the Garrick Club where I hang out when I'm in London and, and we would, and, and Abby would love to have an excuse to go to London. He loved to go to the theater, he'd love to go to London, and anything that would give him an excuse to go and play, for, for Judy and Abby to play in London with that, and Samuel French being right around the corner did it. And I suspect also Samuel French and Company was a very successful adventure as well in terms of I think Abby did well and, and enjoyed life enormously, and was not a serious bookman at all but understood the importance of the collection and, and there's an example of somebody looking for a place to dump--
[45:32] Lancaster: Right.
[45:32] Hagstrom: --the archives of Samuel French and Company.
[45:34] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. Well, he, you know, he was the first in this series of videotaped oral histories or whatever, the very first to be interviewed.
[45:41] Hagstrom: I think I knew that, yes.
[45:42] Lancaster: And my recollection is getting phone calls several times saying, “we gotta clear out a storeroom, the rent’s gotten too high, send a truck!”
[45:52] Hagstrom: [laughs]
[45:53] Lancaster: And, you know, we would, and that's why we have tens of thousands of, of acting editions and plays. [crosstalk]
[46:00] Hagstrom: A unique collection, absolutely a unique collection. [crosstalk]
[46:01] Lancaster: A unique collection, yeah. Plus all kinds of other theater ephemera, photographs and, and--
[46:07] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[46:07] Lancaster: --scripts, I mean, literal manuscripts from the 19th century.
[46:10] Hagstrom: Really?
[46:11] Lancaster: Records of the firm. And Abbott, you know, his, his grandfather had bought the American side of Samuel French Company-- [crosstalk]
[46:19] Hagstrom: I didn’t know the history, yeah. [crosstalk
[46:20] Lancaster: --and then, and then Abbott, Abbott, one of the things he was proudest of was having reacquired the English branch--
[46:27] Hagstrom: Oh, is that right?
[46:27] Lancaster: --and brought them back together in the early ‘50s.
[46:30] Hagstrom: I didn't know that.
[46:30] Lancaster: Yeah. So, uh, you know, that was, and he was wonderful on the Council and all that. [crosstalk]
[46:35] Hagstrom: And great fun.
[46:36] Lancaster: Great fun.
[46:36] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[46:36] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. Fred Lane, somebody that you knew for a long time?
[46:41] Hagstrom: Oh, absolutely. Fred, Fred was a Boston lawyer. A corporate lawyer as far as I, or a trust lawyer. [crosstalk]
[46:49] Lancaster: Yeah, Nutter, McClennen & Fish specialized in estates.
[46:52] Hagstrom: And trusts, yeah. And I used to have lunch with Fred about once a year in Boston. And Fred was a great collector of angling.
[47:00] Lancaster: Yes, indeed.
[47:00] Hagstrom: And, and gave his collection, and I, this goes way back to, I guess, when Fred was an undergraduate. And Fred wasn't, was a, Fred was a constant source of console--
[47:17] Lancaster: Yes.
[47:17] Hagstrom: --on the Council. He very much was a quiet person, did not want to be Chairman at any point. Was anxious when he had to be Chairman even though he was a very articulate man. He was very much in the background but he was certainly loyal and, and, and extremely generous both financially and with regard to time and, and interest. And Barbara, his wife, was always part of this.
[47:50] Lancaster: Yes, she came to these, she, she often said when she had a conflict between something at Vassar, where she had gone to school and Amherst, she chose to come to Amherst with, with Fred because she found it more exciting.
[48:02] Hagstrom: And we, and they were, we had, again part of a collegial friendship. It was always good value, and we had a lot of good times together. Yeah.
[48:10] Lancaster: Well, I remember what, being put on the spot on occasion by people who’d say, “well, you know, why are you building up this angling collection? Why do you, why do you have a collection of fishing at, at Amherst?” Well, I said there's a great literature of fishing--
[48:29] Hagstrom: Absolutely.
[48:29] Lancaster: Newton McKeon had, had started giving fishing books, Charlie Cole was a fisherman. [crosstalk]
[48:34] Hagstrom: Is that true? [crosstalk]
[48:34] Lancaster: He, Charlie Cole gave, gave a number of fishing books.
[48:37] Hagstrom: Oh, I knew that, yeah.
[48:37] Lancaster: But the, the clincher came when one year Tyler Wick, who's now on the Council himself, wrote his English undergraduate honors thesis on the literature of angling and used Fred's collection extensively. So there's no, there's no further question about why an angling collection is useful-- [both laugh]
[48:56] Hagstrom: Isn’t that nice?
[48:57] Lancaster: --at Amherst.
[48:58] Hagstrom: That’s nice, yeah.
[48:59] Lancaster: It does have some intellectual respectability. [crosstalk]
[49:01] Hagstrom: ‘Course it does. Well, and there’s a great history.
[49:02] Lancaster: There is, indeed.
[49:04] Hagstrom: It's part of, it's part of the English, English intellectual history.
[49:07] Lancaster: Exactly.
[49:08] Hagstrom: Absolutely.
[49:08] Lancaster: And, and English literature.
[49:09] Hagstrom: I mean, it's like it's in the same category of shooting and hunting and, and--
[49:15] Lancaster: Part of the whole--
[49:17] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[49:18] Lancaster: Yeah. Um, Mahat Guest. You brought her on the Council in 1974. And I wonder, given the, the, the tensions, whether her relationship to Al Guest, being his wife, might have played a role in your thinking.
[49:37] Hagstrom: Never. Mahat was, Mahat was, Mahat is--
[49:45] Lancaster: Yes, very much so. [crosstalk]
[49:45] Hagstrom: I mean, Charlotte, Charlotte and I are going to go over and have a cup of tea with Mahat this afternoon at Applewood. Mahat, she's a Holyoke graduate. She was Al Guest’s right hand, they, they worked as a team, it was extraordinary.
[50:03] Al Guest would, a person like Al Guest is, is, would be a total anachronism these days. But when I was an undergraduate, he ran the Alumni Affairs of the College and did it with extraordinary finesse, and with the kind of largesse and openness that was wonderfully acceptable and, and made people feel good. And, because he was honest, Al Guest was honest all the way and everybody liked him. And Mahat was the person behind Al to make it all work and keep it working. And I don't know whether, had Al died when Mahat became on the Council? [crosstalk]
[50:41] Lancaster: Oh, no, not at all.
[50:43] Hagstrom: He, he was very--
[50:43] Lancaster: He was still, he was still very much around. [crosstalk]
[50:45] Hagstrom: And then I, I would never have thought of asking Al to be a member of the Council just because it was not his cup of tea. [crosstalk]
[50:53] Lancaster: Well, yeah. And also in his position as, as Head of the Alumni Office, he would, it would of been awkward. [crosstalk]
[50:56] Hagstrom: Oh well I didn’t, I mean I, yeah, okay. Right. But, But Mahat, I know because of my own respect for Mahat was, was, I, just that.
[50:58] Lancaster: Yeah.
[51:00] Hagstrom: Simple as that. I, again, a person whom I thought could add to the Council.
[51:12] Lancaster: Exactly.
[51:13] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[51:13] Lancaster: Yeah.
[51:13] Hagstrom: Another opinion, another--
[51:14] Lancaster: Right. Yeah.
[51:16] Hagstrom: And a friend.
[51:16] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, then 2 others, whom you brought on and have continued, one continuing to become Chairman, who's in fact, retiring in a couple of days. Sam Ellenport.
[51:29] Hagstrom: Right.
[51:29] Lancaster: A bookbinder in Boston--
[51:31] Hagstrom: Right.
[51:31] Lancaster: A, very much a book person but also a collector. And Ron Gordon, his classmate, who's a printer and typographer.
[51:39] Hagstrom: Whom I knew more, I, I knew Ron Gordon because he was a protege of Joe Blumenthal's. That's how I got to know Ron.
[51:48] Lancaster: Right.
[51:48] Hagstrom: And, and and I'm sure I got to know Sam subsequent to knowing Ron.
[51:53] Lancaster: Uh huh.
[51:54] Hagstrom: It was, but Ron goes way back because of the Joe Blumenthal connection. And, and I can date that, and I, and I’m sure it's the other way around with regard to, to Sam. But again, book, book people and printers and, and very much contributors. [crosstalk]
[52:09] Lancaster: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Ron has of course designed a number of book plates for the Library, and, and the designer and printer of a number of keepsakes as well. Yeah. Which has, has been very good. Um, Barry Maurer?
[52:23] Hagstrom: Oh, Barry Maurer.
[52:26] Lancaster: Could you, uh, he was a great collector. But how did you connect? You didn't, you weren’t in school together. [crosstalk]
[52:30] Hagstrom: And I, and I can’t tell you, it was through somebody else. It was, I'm sure this came about because somebody, it may have been Will, I don't remember who it was at all. It was, I didn't know Barry at all. And somebody came, brought up Barry and said that he would be a good Council member and told me about him, and that was what happened.
[52:53] Lancaster: Yeah. Great.
[52:53] Hagstrom: But it was not like Ron whom I knew personally. But and then, and then subsequently his, his daughter Shawn was on the Council for a while. [crosstalk]
[53:02] Lancaster: Yes, yeah.
[53:02] Hagstrom: And, and that sort of faded away, but, whatever.
[53:06] Lancaster: Yeah, well after Barry's death, uh--
[53:08] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[53:08] Lancaster: You know, it sort of-- [crosstalk]
[53:09] Hagstrom: Untimely death, too.
[53:10] Lancaster: Untimely, very much so.
[53:11] Hagstrom: But he was very generous to the College, again.
[53:13] Lancaster: He was. He gave us a number of fine collections that we were able to acquire a number of, of the pieces of his prime collection of World War One prose literature.
[53:13] Hagstrom: Is that what it was?
[53:13] Lancaster: Yeah. That was, that was, until he started collecting African art and had no money left for books. [laughs]
[53:23] Hagstrom: Is that right? Okay.
[53:25] But he was, was a serious collector, absolutely.
[53:34] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah. Um, one last name I'd like to throw out, that's Ellen Long.
[53:40] Hagstrom: Ah, well.
[53:41] Lancaster: She was the wife of your classmate Dixon, and, and again somebody who died untimely.
[53:47] Hagstrom: Um, Dixon and Ellen were looking for a way to connect with the College in, Dixon being, in a non-traditional way, and I, this comes out of a conversation we had in Cleveland at one point. And, and I, I said to Ellen, who was very dear to me, I was their best man when they were married, and she was, she was very dear and her family were very dear to me, “how would you like to try a stint on the Council?”
[54:17] Ellen being bright and interested in so forth and so on. And this was very much a “Jack” kind of idea. And I think she, it was something that simply didn't work out. It was not her cup of tea once, when she tried it. And I think she was only on for two or four years.
[54:35] Lancaster: Yeah, one term, I think.
[54:36] Hagstrom: One term, right. And, and it just was not her cup of tea. But that's, that's how it came about.
[54:40] Lancaster: Yeah.
[54:42] Hagstrom: And, and Dixon has, has never been a collector. He's never been a library person very much. He's, I don't know whether he's still a Friend, but he's always been friendly to the College.
[54:54] Lancaster: Sure.
[54:54] Hagstrom: And certainly generous over the years, and there's nothing I couldn't ask Dixon for if I knew we needed it, but I've never asked him for anything because it's never been that kind of thing.
[55:07] Lancaster: Jack, you, you've been, you were Chairman of the Friends of the Library for 17 years from 1973 to 1990. And now, you've been Chairman Emeritus for almost that long, 15 years since 1990. And I wonder how it looks to you at this point from, from that perspective, how the years since your chairmanship strike you and what you see is the future?
[55:38] Hagstrom: It's interesting because I'm very proud of the Friends of the Amherst College Library as an institution because I think, I think it's, I think it has achieved so much for the Library without going the wrong way in terms of interfering with the running of the Library. And each time [coughs], excuse me, with each new thing, whether it'd be the Frost Fellow or the, the kids going down to the Folger or whatever, whatever. I think it's just a real plus for the Friends and for the Library and for the College.
[56:19] And I think that it would be wonderful if it just continues in the same vein with new things happening as they seem appropriate. And, and if things become outmoded, get rid of them. But, but keep, I think, keep the same focus and that is: supportive of the Library as a whole supportive of the librarian, but not under the thumb of the Library and whomever that person may or may, may be, and have a very independent voice from the administration of the Library because they, they sometimes do differ. And priorities differ. And I think that one of the, one of the functions of the Friends can be to be an alter ego for the Library and, and the administration of the Library, and sometimes an advocate for the librarian and the administration with the administration of the College in a careful kind of way.
[57:23] And I think, I think, I think it's really crucial that the collegiality of the Friends continue as such, as a group of Friends on the Council and leading and, and working very closely with the staff of the Library in the same collegial fashion, as friends, with appropriate respect for individual talents and individual specializations amongst the staff. And I think of, of people who have been Friends like Margaret Groesbeck for, for so long for this, and, and John, how long have you been, 20-some years? 27 years? Exactly. [crosstalk]
[58:05] Lancaster: 28, 28 and a half.
[58:05] Hagstrom: Yeah, exactly. There you are, and that sort of thing, and it makes for a wonderful, ongoing thing, which I see no reason why should, it shouldn't continue in the same vein, given, given those sort of parameters of collegiality and personality and, and so forth. And to, and to enlist the support of the administration for the Library, I see no reason to be anything but totally enthusiastic about this. And I am, I know a little bit about the other Friends groups. And I think, I think, I think one of the important things is to, is to maintain the posture of broad involvement amongst the, amongst the constituents of the Friends rather than people who are just interested in Special Collections or interested in art books or whatever, but just a broad base of support. And that's that's the way I feel about the future. I have no reason to be anything but totally enthusiastic. [crosstalk]
[59:06] Lancaster: Yeah, that’s great. The numbers keep growing.
[59:09] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[59:09] Lancaster: There, there's a certain limit, obviously.
[59:13] Hagstrom: Sure.
[59:13] Lancaster: But, uh, you may know that this year's Student Committee has already signed up more than 100 members from the student body.
[59:21] Hagstrom: That's wonderful. I mean, that’s just great.
[59:22] Lancaster: Yeah. And, and some of them will, will perhaps drop by the wayside, but others will continue and find something that they didn't know about before.
[59:30] Hagstrom: But I think the membership hovers around 500 or 600, that’s a very-- [crosstalk]
[59:35] Lancaster: It’s between 6 and 7 hundred.
[59:36] Hagstrom: That's a very considerable number of people. [crosstalk]
[59:39] Lancaster: Yeah. For a, for a college this size, I think it's unusual in this country.
[59:45] Hagstrom: I, I always used to, kind of in a funny way, when I was doing this, I’d say, “I really want you to support this rinky dink college in Massachusetts.”
[59:54] Lancaster: [laughs]
[59:54] Hagstrom: Well, it’s sort of the way I think about Amherst, in a funny way, it was, in a kind of respectful, but I think is a small college that, that has a kind of funny quirkiness to it, and I think it should be supported.
[1:00:08] Lancaster: [laughs] Great.
[1:00:08] Hagstrom: And I love it. Anyway, yeah.
[1:00:11] Lancaster: Well, I'd like to come back to the question of collecting in a bibliographical sense that you've talked about, alluded to on several occasions and maybe talk in a little more detail about doing a bibliography and how you, how you go about it. The bibliography that you're working on right now might be the best example, James Merrill. [crosstalk]
[1:00:36] Hagstrom: Let me--, right. Let me go back in history a little bit about this. Because, because what happened was, I think I, as I alluded to, when, when I, when I started to think about doing a bibliography and it was of Thom Gunn, I had a sabbatical coming up, I had a first rate Gunn collection, and, and I knew the value of, of bibliographies for my own collecting purposes.
[1:01:04] But to jump from using a bibliography to actually thinking about doing a bibliography was a quantum leap, because I didn't have a clue. And it's this kind of thing that, that, where you know that people have, there's real scholarship involved in words, techniques, I mean, and so forth and so on. And this goes back to 1976, ‘77. That, that was ‘75, maybe. Anyway, and, and so I started looking at bibliographies very carefully and, and, and trying to understand how they were constructed. And, and then, and I can't remember very specifically, but I know that I felt very much the amateur amongst highly professional people and, and, but everybody was supportive and nobody said “you can't do it.” And so that, along with George Bixby, we, we compiled the Gunn bibliography. And in so doing, I met Barry Bloomfield, who was Auden’s bibliography, and Barry became a close friend. And we, we, we chatted about all kinds of things, and we wrote long letters, and we disagreed about all kinds of things.
[1:02:24] Lancaster: [laughs]
[1:02:24] Hagstrom: Um, but we always fr--, and we always have lunch in London once or twice a year, once or twice a time when I was in London. And, and so I, when I was doing the Gunn, I was in London, and I went to London and spent a lot of time staying with Jeffery Amherst, and would go off in search of Gunn material and meeting people. That's why I was up at Cambridge and met Oates and, and so forth. And invariably, people were helpful. And one thing would lead to another to another to another person. And so I was amassing more and more data. And the more I amassed, the more I realized how it was coming together as a puzzle.
[1:03:09] And so when we actually did the Gunn bibliography, I'm still very proud of that book. It's not the book that I would want to do now because I didn't, I didn't pay attention to subsequent printings and things like that, which I have learned is very important. And, and so now let's jump, but the Gunn bibliography still stands as a, as a piece of, of, I think, very credible scholarship, with its fault, with its faults. [crosstalk]
[1:03:41] Lancaster: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
[1:03:43] Hagstrom: But now working on Merrill and again, alright, finishing the Gunn. Then, then I had, I was collecting Merrill and, and I had been collecting Merrill up until the present time. And I really wanted to get going on and doing a Merrill bibliography and, and that was kind of interesting because I wanted to do it. And then, and then I wrote, I wrote to Jimmy and said, “would you like, would this be good with you?” He said,”it’d be great, but I've just agreed that a woman named Mary Johnson would take on the project.” And he said, “I would expect that you,” and he wrote, “I would expect that you and Bob Wilson,” who used to run the Phoenix Bookshop, and a very considerable Merrill collector, “it would be helpful to Mary Johnson, in her work on the bibliography.” Well, in fact, we were both very helpful, but Mary Johnson, over a period of five years dead-ended. I mean, she just, she didn't have the right focus, and for whatever personal reasons, it didn't work.
[1:04:44] Alright, then, then, Holly Hall, who's head of Special Collections at Washington University in St. Louis, where Merrill's papers are, through the foresight of Bill Matheson who asked Jimmy before anybody thought at Amherst to ask him, “could they have his papers?” And he was delighted, he was flattered. And anyway, Holly Hall, who was, succeeded Bill Matheson as head of the Special Collections, said to me, she said, “I, I want to take on the Merrill project, and will you help me?” And I, Holly Hall was a, was a very good friend and somebody whom I liked enormously and, and said, I said, “absolutely.” And it'd be fun because I, my ego was not involved in this. It was, it was the fun of the project.
[1:05:37] And then, and then Holly, being very busy and Washington University Special Collections is a very busy place and they've got lots of stuff going on. And it’s also a big university. Holly just said to me, she's, after about five years, she said, “I don't want to do this. I can't do it. It'll never get off the ground.” And then, and then Jimmy and I had a long conversation, he said, “I really, once and for all, wish you'd do it.” And, and so that's, and this, and I can't date this, it has to be early ‘90s, I think. And so I wasn't doing anything different then because I was still collecting Merrill. [crosstalk]
[1:06:19] Lancaster: You’re still collecting, yeah.
[1:06:19] Hagstrom: And collecting him in the same– And Jimmy over the years had always, first of all we were very good friends so that if he would send out a Christmas card to his friends, I would get that Christmas card. And, and then he, because he knew about collecting he would always see to it that I got a copy of whatever and, and then and his editor at Knopf and then at Atheneum and then back at Knopf, Harry Ford was also a very good friend of mine and, and, and again, always gave me things and so forth and wonderfully generous. So I wasn't lacking. I'm not lack--, I'm not lacking for a thing that I know of, in terms of, it’s, the problem in terms of doing a bibliography is, is, is not knowing what you don't know.
[1:07:09] Lancaster: Yes, exactly.
[1:07:10] Hagstrom: And I mean, I'm, it's like blurbs on books. I mean, there's, we know this: Wilbur is always something's gonna turn up that you don't know about. And you just found that translation that he did in 1977, well the same thing I'm sure is true of Merrill because, because a writer is not a collector. By and large.
[1:07:30] Lancaster: Exactly, yeah.
[1:07:31] Hagstrom: Thom Gunn was as assiduous as anybody could possibly be. He’d keep a list of things from, to tell me about, but then only, only three weeks ago, when, when Bill Morgan was out, clearing out an archive in San Francisco, did he come upon a very small book with a preface by Thom Gunn. It was published in 2001. Well, I would never have known about this. Thom never told me. And I've written to Robert [Yao [sp?], the poet who published this, I wonder if Tom ever saw it because, because of, of not telling me about it. But this is the thing, and, and I think you just learn as a bibliographer that your bibliography will never be perfect, complete and accept that but, but, but go to endless trouble to make it as complete as you possibly can. And if you come to a, an absolute dead end, you stop.
[1:08:28] Lancaster: And you just say what, say what you found so far. [crosstalk]
[1:08:31] Hagstrom: And go on. That’s right.
[1:08:31] And nobody could ever fault you if, if you are forthright about it. And, and, well, there's always going to be more at it and, and that's why I hope Pat Alger does something about the Frost because there's so much to pull together. [crosstalk]
[1:08:46] Lancaster: Frost, yeah.
[1:08:46] Hagstrom: But anyway, what happened is that, is that over time, I became more and more educated about the terms of bibliography. And John, you and I have had--
[1:08:57] Lancaster: Many conversations.
[1:08:58] Hagstrom: Multiple, hundreds of conversations about details of, bibliographical details, you being a professional, and and I being the amateur, but I can always raise amateurish questions to a professional that sometimes makes you go--
[1:09:13] Lancaster: Stop and think.
[1:09:14] Hagstrom: Exactly.
[1:09:14] Lancaster: Exactly.
[1:09:15] Hagstrom: Exactly. And we’ve done that more than one time. [crosstalk]
[1:09:17] Lancaster: No, it's, it's the, it’s the best kind of collaboration.
[1:09:19] Hagstrom: It is.
[1:09:19] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[1:09:19] Hagstrom: It's wonderful because it, because there are and, and, and, and I, and I have found, you remember, and I think I wrote a little article about course descriptions.
[1:09:30] Lancaster: Exactly.
[1:09:30] Hagstrom: I mean, in working on Wilbur. Dick Wilbur, as you well know, for courses at Wellesley and at Wesleyan wrote his own copy for the course descriptions.
[1:09:45] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:09:45] Hagstrom: Which is pure Wilbur.
[1:09:47] Lancaster: That's right.
[1:09:47] Hagstrom: And it appears in a periodical.
[1:09:49] Lancaster: Published Prose.
[1:09:50] Hagstrom: And there was, yeah, exactly. And, and the same thing when come down to talk about dust jacket blurbs, that's absolutely pure authorial intent.
[1:09:59] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:10:01] Hagstrom: And whether, whether you want to take the trouble about it, and whether, that's another story, but--
[1:10:06] Lancaster: Well, you have to, you have to judge if somebody--
[1:10:08] Hagstrom: That’s right.
[1:10:09] Lancaster: If somebody wrote half a dozen blurbs over 20 years, perhaps it's not going to tell you a whole lot about them except--
[1:10:15] Hagstrom: Or it may.
[1:10:16] Lancaster: Or it may tell you because those were the six books that they thought were important.
[1:10:19] Hagstrom: Exactly. And--
[1:10:20] Lancaster: On the other hand, if somebody like Wilbur has written 200 blurbs, the whole, the chronological view of it tells you something else about them. [crosstalk]
[1:10:29] Hagstrom: That’s just the thing. And, but, I think there's a very interesting contrast. Because Gunn wrote, I think, probably 20 blurbs in his whole life. And, but, but, and I can’t understand why he was enthusiastic about some of these books.
[1:10:41] Lancaster: [laughs]
[1:10:42] Hagstrom: Uh, I mean, I have this, I'll leave it alone at that, but, but, but in each case, he wrote the blurb because he wanted to endorse that particular author's work. I can't see that being the case at all in Dick’s writing, I see it more as a favor, in a kind way to somebody for, for accomplishing something.
[1:11:10] Lancaster: Yeah, I think, I think Dick generally wants to promote good poetry.
[1:11:15] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:11:16] Lancaster: And if he can find even one or two good poems in a book that he can say something nice about, he'll do that ‘cause you see in his blurbs that some of them focus on a poem or two poems, some of them are broader about the whole book, some of them are about the whole poet. But you, when you see a couple hundred of them, you, you begin to see how that works.
[1:11:37] Hagstrom: That's right.
[1:11:38] Lancaster: And that's very useful.
[1:11:39] Hagstrom: And also I think, and to draw different conclusions.
[1:11:42] Lancaster: Yeah, exactly.
[1:11:43] Hagstrom: And, and then, and then very recently, using, using the color codes for describing colors is, I think, a wonderful way of doing things in terms of talking about color, and, and, and the Merrill, Knopf published most of Merrill's books. And their logo is a borzoi.
[1:12:07] Lancaster: Right, the dog.
[1:12:08] Hagstrom: A dog.
[1:12:09] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:12:09] Hagstrom: And in about 200 different depictions. So that to you, how to describe these borzois carefully, there is no classification.
[1:12:22] Lancaster: Right.
[1:12:22] Hagstrom: So, I wrote an article that's just been published online about borzois. And so it will have a number. and you can describe that borzoi specifically. [crosstalk]
[1:12:30] Lancaster: So you can just look it up.
[1:12:31] Hagstrom: Yeah, exactly.
[1:12:32] Lancaster: Because you can't, you know, it's very hard to provide a verbal description of, of those-- [crosstalk]
[1:12:37] Hagstrom: It’s imp--, it’s very hard, it’s impossible. I can--
[1:12:39] Lancaster: Well, you can--
[1:12:40] Hagstrom: A running dog, I mean, come on. [crosstalk]
[1:12:41] Lancaster: It, it would be, it would take a lot of words [laughs] to replace that picture. [crosstalk]
[1:12:45] Hagstrom: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. And--
[1:12:46] Lancaster: Well, you mentioned this article has been published online. Uh, one of the things that I've found working on Wilbur is how much new stuff I've been able to find by mining various databases. Um, you know, as you say, that, you know, you never know. But the Internet has broadened the area that you have to search. How--
[1:13:13] Hagstrom: In what way, John?
[1:13:14] Lancaster: Because, because there are so many databases that you can, you can look at and look for the keyword, the name of the author, that kind of thing. Um, it also, of course, helps you buy the book if, once you find a citation to it. But for instance, there are now extensive databases of book reviews. And occasionally you turn up something that didn't turn up in one of the printed indexes.
[1:13:40] Hagstrom: Really, really.
[1:13:40] Lancaster: That kind of thing. So I wonder how you've come to terms with that in working with Merrill?
[1:13:47] Hagstrom: Help, help of friends over the years. First, first of all, the reviews, Knopf would always give me copies of, they have extensive clippings services. [crosstalk]
[1:14:00] Lancaster: Sure, sure.
[1:14:01] Hagstrom: And so I always would get stuff, and then I got, had access to Harry Ford's files.
[1:14:06] Lancaster: Right.
[1:14:06] Hagstrom: And so, and again, I've tried to, I think that, I think that in, I think in the Gunn update, which was published in the Bulletin of Bibliography in, in the ‘90s, early ‘90s. I think I'm the first person that has ever published an extensive review, listing of book reviews of an author.
[1:14:29] Lancaster: Um hmm.
[1:14:30] Hagstrom: And I think it's a, and it does not duplicate the databases that are all out there scattered.
[1:14:36] Lancaster: Sure. No, it doesn’t.
[1:14:37] Hagstrom: And so I'm going to do the same thing with Merrill, and we'll probably ask your help for, for getting some more data, just to be sure that I have them all. But I think it's, if you're going to do a scholarly work, I think, I think book reviews are as important in terms of an adjunct to a bibliography as anything.
[1:14:56] Lancaster: Yeah, if you're doing what, bibliography is essentially a historical--
[1:15:01] Hagstrom: Entirely.
[1:15:01] Lancaster: --undertaking. You're doing historical research.
[1:15:05] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:15:05] Lancaster: And, and you're documenting somebody’s public career--
[1:15:10] Hagstrom: That’s it, that’s it.
[1:15:10] Lancaster: Uh, their publishing, and, and so you need to document the whole range of it and what effect they have. [crosstalk]
[1:15:16] Hagstrom: And the res--, and the responses, exactly, yeah.
[1:15:18] Lancaster: The only thing that, that is missing from, from all our bibliographies and probably always will be is anthology appearances.
[1:15:26] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:15:26] Lancaster: Especially for a prolific poet like, like Wilbur or Gunn or Merrill, it's just, it's so difficult. And, and, and, but yet, you know, the fact that Wilbur’s poems have appeared in 600 anthologies is not insignificant. And what do we do about that sort of thing? Except just call attention to it. I mean, because more people will have read a Wilbur poem or a Merrill poem in an anthology, than will ever buy one of his books.
[1:15:57] Hagstrom: Absolutely. And I think it’s a, I, now that you mention it, I think it's something that one should address in the introduction.
[1:16:05] Lancaster: Um hmm, yeah.
[1:16:05] Hagstrom: Address it. And I remember talking with Barry about this, Barry Bloomfield about this. I think that in, I think, now I may be mistaken, I think that in his second edition of the Auden biography, he did list anthologies, I think, but I may be wrong.
[1:16:21] Lancaster: Well, not, not comprehensively, anyway, yeah.
[1:16:23] Hagstrom: Well, I, he made some mention of it.
[1:16:25] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:16:25] Hagstrom: And I, and I, but I think, I think that one should just never even try, but just make the statement.
[1:16:31] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[1:16:32] Hagstrom: Because there's, it's endless. It’s absolutely endless. [crosstalk]
[1:16:33] Lancaster: It is, it is. I mean, this might be a place where, where a, an online supplement to a printed bibliography would, would make sense because it's the kind of thing that can be updated and added to at any time. And, and it can just grow over the years as people discover these things, especially if you can enlist a few friends to look at anthologies for you.
[1:16:58] Hagstrom: Well, that's right. The other, the other thing about that is translations.
[1:17:03] Lancaster: Oh, yes.
[1:17:03] Hagstrom: They are as, as mores change and so forth and literature's being, I mean, I was talking with somebody from Uzbekistan the other day-- And well, and they're now becoming interested in western literature. And, and, and, and he was asking me what anthology of American poetry I would recommend for him to recommend to somebody in Uzbekistan.
[1:17:29] Lancaster: To translate, yeah.
[1:17:30] Hagstrom: For translation.
[1:17:30] Lancaster: So that they would have an, an overview.
[1:17:32] Hagstrom: Exactly, exactly. [crosstalk]
[1:17:33] Lancaster: Rather than, yeah.
[1:17:33] Hagstrom: Exactly. And I mean, and so--
[1:17:35] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:17:36] Hagstrom: And there, and this is, you know, this has happened really since the breakup of the Soviet Union.
[1:17:41] Lancaster: Yeah. Well, in the various -stans. [crosstalk]
[1:17:43] Hagstrom: Absolutely. Well, that’s right. All of them, yeah.
[1:17:45] Lancaster: But, uh, yeah, well, translation also has its ups and downs, I mean--
[1:17:51] Hagstrom: And open ended.
[1:17:52] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I just discovered, I haven't told you this, you're going to hear it for the first time here. I just discovered another translation of Wilbur into Italian.
[1:18:01] Hagstrom: Really?
[1:18:02] Lancaster: That he didn't know about and you didn't know about--
[1:18:04] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:18:04] Lancaster: --and I didn’t know about.
[1:18:06] Hagstrom: Well, this is what happens. And, so it's an ongoing thing, yeah.
[1:18:09] Lancaster: Yeah, yeah.
[1:18:10] Hagstrom: And, but it's, I mean, I've had enormous fun and and I've had, the, the fun has been in doing it but it also the fun has been in the meeting of the people and finding, finding new things and putting the puzzle together.
[1:18:22] Lancaster: But then there's just a lot of just sitting at the desk and slogging.
[1:18:26] Hagstrom: Oh, absolutely.
[1:18:29] Lancaster: And, you know, and checking all those details.
[1:18:31] Hagstrom: And be sure you get it right.
[1:18:31] Lancaster: Make sure you get it right. And, and you, I mean, you have an extraordinary Merrill collection, as you had an extraordinary Wilbur collection, which is now at Amherst, but there, there must be something that you don't have and that you have to go look at somewhere else.
[1:18:47] Hagstrom: Well, yeah, they're very, exactly. Oh, yes, exactly. And, and I mean, how did, Merrill did produce thing, things that he's, I mean, he published, for instance, when he, when, when the Divine Comedies, he sent out The Book of Ephraim, which is part of the Divine in about 40 copies. Now, what kind of a binder did he send that out in? So you can describe that perfectly. Well, the binders down, I mean, at Washington University, I don't happen to, I have a copy of the, I have a photocopy of this, but I don't have a, the real--
[1:19:16] Lancaster: A copy of one of the 40 that he sent out, yeah. [crosstalk]
[1:19:18] Hagstrom: Exactly, exactly. And so I've got to go to, back to Washington University or, or to Atlanta or something like that, which, which is fun.
[1:19:23] Lancaster: Yeah. Well--
[1:19:24] Hagstrom: No, no, I mean, I I know about, thank God I knew about it, but it's the things that I don't know about yet that worry me.
[1:19:31] Lancaster: Yes. Well, once you publish, I'm sure that the critics will turn them up for you and bring them to your attention. [both laugh]
[1:19:38] Hagstrom: Our friend Treister[?] was the first one after the Gunn came out to tell you about an interview that appeared in Western Kalamazoo periodical. I mean, come on.
[1:19:48] Lancaster: But that's, that's wonderful.
[1:19:50] Hagstrom: Oh, sure.
[1:19:50] Lancaster: And that's the whole point of it.
[1:19:51] Hagstrom: Absolutely.
[1:19:52] Lancaster: You, you publish in order to generate more, more scholarship.
[1:19:57] Hagstrom: The worst thing is to get defensive about it, because you can’t-- [laughs, crosstalk]
[1:20:00] Lancaster: Oh, no. And in fact, just about every decent bibliography has an introduction that ends by saying, “I know this bibliography is out of date. Just send me all the addenda and corrigenda.”
[1:20:12] Hagstrom: Exactly, exactly. [crosstalk]
[1:20:12] Lancaster: That’s what you have to do.
[1:20:13] Hagstrom: Emendations, emendations.
[1:20:14] Lancaster: Emendations.
[1:20:15] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:20:15] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:20:17] Hagstrom: Oh, yeah.
[1:20:17] Lancaster: Okay.
[1:20:18] Hagstrom: It's fun.
[1:20:18] Lancaster: Yeah.
[1:20:19] Hagstrom: It's fun.
[1:20:19] Lancaster: Well, that's, that's the whole point.
[1:20:21] Hagstrom: Yeah.
[1:20:21] Lancaster: I mean, and especially for you. Collecting, publishing bibliographies had no effect whatsoever on your, on your primary career.
[1:20:33] Hagstrom: No--
[1:20:33] Lancaster: I mean, Columbia, physicians and surgeons could care less whether, whether you've published a bibliography, I assume.
[1:20:39] Hagstrom: The funny thing is that, is, is that amongst my, my still extant colleagues at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, they really do treat me as a bit of an oddity because I've gone on to, to write this, I mean, I sent a copy of the citation for the borzoi to, to the new chairman at Columbia, and he wrote back and said, “onward and upward.” [both laugh]
[1:21:02] Lancaster: Well, you know you didn't retire to play golf.
[1:21:05] Hagstrom: Well, exactly.
[1:21:05] Lancaster: And that makes you a real oddball. [both laugh]
[1:21:08] Hagstrom: That's right, that's right, that's funny. Oh my. Thanks, John, very much.
[1:21:12] Lancaster: Thank you, Jack. This has been a great, great--
[1:21:15] Hagstrom: It’s been fun.
[1:21:16] Lancaster: --eye-opener for me, and I trust that everybody who sees this will learn a great deal from it.
[1:21:22] Hagstrom: Well, we've had a good time.
[1:21:23] Thank you, Marcus.
Jack W. C. Hagstrom, class of 1955, was a collector of books, a bibliographer, and a founding member of the Friends of the Amherst College Library. His first major gift to the library was a collection of poetry by Robert Frost, who taught him as a student at Amherst. Hagstrom earned a medical degree from Columbia University and taught at Case Western Reserve. From there he served as director of pathology at Harlem Hospital and later at Columbia Presbyterian, where he retired as professor emeritus of pathology. He served as chairman of the Friends of the Library from 1973-1990.
John Lancaster served at Amherst as special collections librarian and archivist of the college beginning in 1977 and he retired from the position of curator of special collections in 2007.
Educational, not-for-profit use is permitted without the owner’s permission if the participants and publisher are acknowledged.
For publication and citation information, please see the catalog record for this recording.
For further information contact Archives & Special Collections at archives@amherst.edu.